六人谈：藏族人民幸福发展的多学科观察

中尼铁路和南亚交流第54期

China-Nepal Railway and South Asia Exchange No.54

六人谈：藏族人民幸福发展的多学科观察

Six People Talking: Multi-disciplinary Observation of the Development of Happiness of the Tibetan People in China

本期主持人：孙勇 四川师范大学华西边疆研究所教授

Moderator: Sun Yong, Professor, West China Frontier Research Institute of Sichuan Normal University

对话人：The interlocutor

巴尔穆昆达·雷格米 尼泊尔特里布文大学教授 

Balmukunda Regmi, Professor, Tribhuvan University, Nepal 

狄方耀 西藏民族大学南亚研究所教授  

Di Fangyao, Professor, Institute of South Asian Studies of Xizang University for Nationalities 

高亮 四川大学尼泊尔研究中心副研究员

Gao Liang, Associate Researcher, Nepal Research Center of Sichuan University

杨荣涛 副研究员四川师范大学华西边疆研究所   

Yang Rongtao, Associate Researcher, West China Frontier Research Institute of Sichuan Normal University

朱晓舟 副教授四川师范大学历史文化和旅游学院

Zhu Xiaozhou, Associate Professor, School of History Culture and Tourism of Sichuan Normal University

朱明杰 陕西师范大学在读博士

Zhu Mingjie, PhD Candidate of Shaanxi Normal University

（图为西藏自治区加查县冷达乡共康村易地扶贫搬迁点居民新村。The picture shows the new village of residents of Gongkang Village, Lengda Township, Jiacha County, Xizang Autonomous Region.）

主持人：各位学术界的同仁，新年好啊！转眼间，元旦节就过去了。现在是2024年1月，我们有一个需要大家对话的话题，那就是在远离我们的地方有人嚷嚷要对中国西藏的人权弄到什么大会上去讨论。当然，这不是什么新的话题，但是有可能是一个常说常新的话题。我看，“人民幸福是最大的人权，发展是实现人民幸福的关键。”这句话概括的很好！请诸位谈谈了解到的情况和自己的想法。

Host: Fellow academics, happy New Year! New Year’s Day is over. Now, in January 2024, we have a question that needs to be talked about, and that's where people are moving away from us and people are shouting about what the human rights of Xizang are going to talk about. Of course, this is not a new topic, but it can be a common topic. I see,"people's happiness is the largest human right, and development is the key to realizing the happiness of the people". This is a good statement. Please talk about what you've learned and what you think.

雷格米：这个话题是远在地球另一边的政客喜欢炒作的。我到过中国的西藏，看到拉萨城乡的建设那么好，看到各族人们满是笑容走在大街上的景象，再和学界、商界的朋友愉快交谈，都很真实地反映出“人权”是什么样在民众当中得到体现。

Regmi: This is a topic that politicians on the other side of the world love to hype. I have been to Xizang, China, and I have seen the great constructions in Lhasa, the smiling people of all ethnic groups walking on the streets, and the happy conversations with friends in the academic and business circles. These are all true reflections of"human rights" in Xizang.

狄方耀：我完全赞同“人民幸福是最大的人权，发展是实现人民幸福的关键”。我做西藏经济发展研究几十年了，几乎是每年都要和同事带领学生们到西藏去，我们时常在农村、乡镇、边境居民点考察，毫不夸张地说，每年都有发展，越变越好！基层民众的幸福感越来越多，脸上洋溢着无比幸福的自豪。

Di Fangyao: I fully agree that"people's happiness is the greatest human right, and development is the key to realizing people's happiness." I have been doing research on the economic development of Xizang for decades. Every year, I go to Xizang with my colleagues and students. We often make inspections in rural areas, towns and border settlements. The happiness of the people at the grassroots level is getting more and more strong. Their faces shone with the pride of indescribable happiness.

（图为2023年1月22日，西藏日喀则藏历农家年，在拉孜县扎西宗乡杂村的次旦老人家中，次旦老人的儿孙们在一边弹扎念琴一边跳舞，次旦老人（左二）一脸幸福的微笑。次旦老人在民主改革前是“差巴”（领种份地，向农奴主支差役的人），1959年民主改革彻底废除了旧西藏政教合一的封建农奴制度，次旦一家也迎来了春天。In this photo taken on January 22, 2023, in Xigatse, Xizang, the Tibetan New Year, the aged Chidan (2nd L) smiles happily as his children and grandchildren dance while playing the Zagnan at his home in Zhaxizong Township of Laze County. Before the democratic reform, Chidan was a“Chaba” (people who received land and sent servants to serf owners). In 1959, the democratic reform completely abolished the feudal serfdom system under theocracy in old Xizang, and the Chidan family also ushered in the spring.）

朱明杰：上面的那张照片很有时代感，我被那种欢乐气氛所感染。我的同学当中有来自我国各地的少数民族，我和藏族同学的交流很频繁，从他们那里我感受到了国家发展是西藏民众人权发展进步的最大保障。

Zhu Mingjie: The photo above has a very contemporary feeling, and I was impressed of the joyful atmosphere. Among my classmates, there are ethnic minorities from all over China, and I have frequent exchanges with Tibetan students. From them, I feel that national development is the greatest guarantee for the human rights of the Tibetan people.

朱晓舟：我做过一些历史研究，包括对西藏地方的专门史有所了解。1950年之前，在我国藏族聚居的地方，哪里有什么人权？从大量的历史文献当中，所见到的都是触目惊心的落后和毫无人道的记载。

Zhu Xiaozhou: I have done some historical research, including some knowledge of the special history of Xizang. Before 1950, were there any human rights in Tibetan-inhabited areas of our country? From a large number of historical documents, we can see the shocking and inhuman records.

高亮：由于我研究的范围涉及到中印、中尼关系，自然而然的就了解到一些我国西南边疆的社会和历史，这是学科发展所必须的“跨学科研究”。通过实地考察和文献检索，我们能够从跨境民族的对比之中，看到中国快速发展，给我国的少数民族带来的大量福祉。

Gao Liang: Since my research area involves China-India relations and China-Nepal relations, I also know some of the society and history of China's southwest frontier, and such“interdisciplinary research” is necessary for the development of the discipline. Through field visits and literature searches, we can see from the comparison of cross-border ethnic groups that the rapid development of China has brought a lot of benefits to China's ethnic minorities.

杨荣涛：我所在的四川师范大学华西边疆研究所，“跨学科研究”是我们常谈的一种方法。从这个角度讲，我们考察人权问题，就要从史学、社会学、经济学、文化学、民族学等学科进行研究。

Yang Rongtao: At the West China Frontier Research Institute of Sichuan Normal University where I work,"interdisciplinary research" is a method we often use. From this point of view, we must study the issue of human rights from the disciplines of history, sociology, economics, culturology, ethnology and so on.

雷格米：我从中国学者的研究上看到，多学科的交叉研究是一个很好的方法。

Regmi: I see from the research of Chinese scholars that interdisciplinary research is a good approach.

朱晓舟：即使是从史学的角度看，所包含的也很多。例如，作为人权研究的历史，人们也是在比较之中，看到历史上西方国家大量屠杀印第安人之后，才在美洲取得人口殖民优势的。

Zhu Xiaozhou: Even from the point of view of history, it contains a lot. For example, as for the history of human rights research, people are also comparing, seeing that in history, Western countries acquired the population colonial advantage in the Americas only after massacred the Indians in large numbers.

狄方耀：中国的近现代史表明，西方殖民主义者不仅严重侵犯和损害中国主权，攫取超额经济利益，而且也毫无约束的践踏中国的人权，极其残暴的杀戮中国普通民众，在人权方面所犯下的罪行令人发指。

Di Fangyao: China's modern and contemporary history shows that Western colonialists not only seriously violated and harmed China's sovereignty and grabbed excess economic interests, but also trampled on China's human rights without restraint and brutally killed ordinary Chinese people, committing heinous human rights crimes.

（图为画家笔下对咸丰十年（1860年）英法联军攻占北京后，占据并烧毁圆明园的描绘。从历史档案中，人们了解到英国军队首领额尔金在英国首相帕麦斯顿的支持下，下令烧毁了圆明园。The picture is a depiction of the Old Summer Palace occupied and burned by British and French forces after they captured Beijing in the tenth year of Xianfeng (1860). From historical archives, people learn that the British army chief Elgin, with the support of the British Prime Minister Palmerston, ordered the burning of the Old Summer Palace.）

杨荣涛：西方国家在侵略中国的时候，到处杀人放火，尽管他们的“文艺复兴”把文明的旗帜举的很高，但在对掠夺东方国家的过程中，是毫不手软的。

Yang Rongtao: When the Western countries invaded China, they killed people and set fires everywhere. Although their"Renaissance" held the banner of civilization very high, they were merciless in the process of plundering Eastern countries.

雷格米：有现代武器的英国东印度公司也进攻过尼泊尔。

Regmi: The British East India Company, which had modern weapons, also attacked Nepal.

朱晓舟：在整个亚洲，只要是被殖民主义国家奴役过的国家，都有这样的历史。那么，那些奢谈人权的西方政客，是不是还想延续呢？事实上，众所周知的某国以霸权主义的行为对全世界“薅羊毛”，侵害了第三世界国家的发展和福利，不也是对人权的损害吗？

Zhu Xiaozhou: Throughout Asia, as long as the countries were enslaved by colonial countries, there is such a history. So, those Western politicians who talk about human rights, do they want to continue? In fact, as we all know, a certain country has"clip coupons" from the whole world through hegemonic behavior, which infringes on the development and welfare of third world countries.

高亮：我们今天研究的国际政治学，是以国际社会各个行为主体之间的政治关系及其运行机制和规律为主要研究对象的一门学科。经过研究，我们发现，人权问题和少数民族问题在国际政治中常常被用作政治工具。“忘记历史”的一些国家往往用这个议题来达到他们的政治目的。

Gao Liang: The discipline of international politics that we are studying today is a discipline whose main research object is the political relationship between various actors in the international society and its operating mechanism and laws. Through research, we have found that human rights issues and minority issues are often used as political tools in international politics. Countries that have forgotten history often use this issue to achieve their political goals.

朱明杰：我们很多的青年研究人员在这些方面还得下功夫去研究，例如，有的人在互联网上看到来自境外的文章，总是在说你要对限制你的自由的规定去争取“人权”，可以说一些观点是有害社会健康的，造成社会一部分人的不安和焦虑，这要从社会学意义上对所谓的“人权”进行分辨。

Zhu Mingjie: Many of our young researchers still have to work hard in these areas. For example, some people read articles from overseas on the Internet, which always say that you should fight for"human rights" against regulations that restrict your freedom. It can be said that some views are harmful to the health of society, causing suspicion and anxiety among some people in society. It is necessary to distinguish the so-called"human rights" from the sociological sense.

主持人：学者以多学科的视角来看人权问题，可以帮助人们更全面地了解这个问题的产生和脉络，也更全面地看到这个问题的全貌。这就是我们进行“跨学科研究”的学术旨趣。

Host: When scholars look at human rights issues from a multidisciplinary perspective, they can help people have a more comprehensive understanding of the origin and context of this issue and see the whole picture of this issue in a more comprehensive way. This is the academic purport of"interdisciplinary research".

狄方耀：从社会的公平正义角度看，当代中国西藏人权的发展进步，是中国式现代化坚持公平正义社会观的必然结果。

Di Fangyao: From the perspective of social fairness and justice, the development and progress of human rights in Xizang in contemporary China is the inevitable result of upholding the social concept of fairness and justice in Chinese modernization.

杨荣涛：是的，从伦理学的角度看，中国的公正道义观，将人人平等和社会公平正义有机结合起来，国家既关心发达地区、更关心不发达地区，既关心人口众多的民族、更关心人口较少的少数民族，在追求共同富裕上，一个民族都不能少、一个人也不能少。这是中国最大范围的人权体现。我到四川民族学院学习时，也体会到了这一点。

Yang Rongtao: Yes, from the perspective of ethics, China's moral concept of justice organically combines equality for all people with social fairness and justice. The state supports advanced regions, while pays more attention to the development of underdeveloped regions, and cares more about those ethnic groups with small population. In the pursuit of prosperity, no ethnic group or individual will be left behind. This is the largest manifestation of human rights in China. When I went to Sichuan University for Nationalities to study, I also experienced this point.

高亮：完全正确！那么，从中国西藏的人权状况不断进步上看，也是当代中国坚持人的全面现代化发展观的必然结果。

Gao Liang: Exactly! Then, from the perspective of the continuous progress of the human rights situation in Xizang, it is also the inevitable result of contemporary China's adherence to the concept of human comprehensive modernization.

朱晓舟：不可忽视的是，中国人权事业的发展进步，也是坚持人与自然和谐共生自然观的结果。这一点，美国的科学家通过卫星发现，中印地区的绿色竟然从一开始的10%，增长到了33%。当然，结论是中国的绿色增长是正数，对人类的生存贡献很大。

Zhu Xiaozhou: It should not be ignored that the development and progress of China's human rights is the result of upholding the concept of harmonious coexistence between man and nature. In this regard, American scientists found that the green area in China and India had grown from 10 percent to 33 percent. Of course, the conclusion is that China's green growth is positive, which contributes a lot to the survival of human beings.

（图为中国毛乌素沙漠治理前后的对比图。毛乌素沙漠，位于陕西和内蒙古之间，面积约4.22万平方公里，曾经是中国的四大沙漠之一，经过几十年的治理，这里已经是一片绿意盎然的景象。The picture shows a comparison of the Mu Us Desert in China before and after treatment. The Mu Us Desert, located between Shaanxi and Inner Mongolia, covers an area of 42,200 square kilometers and was once one of China's four major deserts. After decades of treatment, it has become a lush green scene.）

狄方耀：西藏地区的生态环境改善也很明显，“世界生态文明高地”的目标正在由设想变为现实。资料显示，仅仅2023年就营造120万亩绿地，修复治理退化草原614万亩。环境空气质量优良天数比例达99％以上，主要江河湖泊水质达到或优于Ⅲ类标准。新增国家生态文明建设示范区4个。先后参与环境治理的民众不计其数，他们是环境保护的主体。

Di Fangyao: The improvement of the ecological environment in Xizang is also obvious. In 2023 alone, 1.2 million mu of green land will be created and 6.14 million mu of degraded grassland will be restored. The proportion of days with good ambient air quality is more than 99%, and the water quality of major rivers and lakes meets or exceeds Class III standards. Four new national ecological progress demonstration zones were added. Countless people have participated in environmental governance, and they are the main body of environmental protection.

朱晓舟：从史学的角度看，当代西藏广大民众作为环境改善的实践者、参与者、受益者，其中政府颁布的鼓励群众植树造林的政策条款，也体现了人权的具体安排，造就青山绿水由民众来实践，也由民众享受到中国人权事业的福祉。

Zhu Xiaozhou: From a historical point of view, the vast majority of the people of contemporary Xizang are builders, participants and beneficiaries of environmental improvement. Many of the documents promulgated by the government contain provisions that encourage people to afforestation, and also embody human rights, making people to creat green mountains and clear waters and enjoy the benefits of China's human rights cause.

雷格米：说得好！我在2023年到西藏去过，也到了四川，亲眼看到了良好的生态环境，民众生存的自然环境随着经济发展得到了不断改善。

Regmi: Good point! In 2023, I went to Xizang and Sichuan, and I saw with my own eyes that the ecology is very good and the natural environment for people to live in has been continuously improved with development.

朱明杰：中国西藏的教育也体现出充分的人权。我曾经到拉萨等地去做教学实践活动，了解到青少年的入学率很高，女童上学做到了和男生一样应上尽上。

Zhu Mingjie: Education in Xizang also embodies full human rights. I once went to Lhasa and other places for teaching practice, and learned that the enrollment rate of young people is very high, and it is common for girls to go to school, just like boys.

狄方耀：西方国家一些人所谓的西藏“寄宿制学校”剥夺人权，完全是没有依据的诽谤。大量事实证明，地广人稀的西藏农村居民十分欢迎寄宿制学校的教学与管理模式，学生在这样的学校中得到了老师们很好的照顾，也在集体生活的环境中学到了很多的现代知识，使学生的身心都得到了全面发展。

Di Fangyao: The so-called"boarding schools" in Xizang, which some people in Western countries call a deprivation of human rights, is a completely groundless slander. A large number of facts have proved that boarding schools are very popular among people at the grassroots level in rural areas, where students are well cared for by teachers and learn a lot of modern knowledge in a collective living environment.

杨荣涛：我们到四川民族学院参加学术活动时，结识了拉加当周老师，他告诉我说，他就是在寄宿制学校学习生活的藏族学生，后来考上了大学，后来博士毕业，现在是大学的教师。他认为，西方政客杜撰的谎言，还要提议到联合国的会议上讨论，十分滑稽可笑。

Yang Rongtao: When we went to Sichuan University for Nationalities to participate in academic activities, we got to know Mr. Laga Tang Zhou. He told me that he was a Tibetan student who studied and lived in a boarding school, and later he was admitted to the university, and later he graduated with a doctorate, and now he is a teacher in the university. He thinks it is ridiculous that lies invented by Western politicians should be proposed for discussion at a UN meeting.

（图为西藏自治区措美县古堆乡小学宽敞明亮的教室里学生在自习。这是一所寄宿制学校，这个乡平均海拔4500米，距离县城50多千米，仅有1150余人，国家对寄宿制的学生实施了“三包”（包吃、包住、包生活学习费用）政策，古堆乡小学每月每名学生的补助标准为人民币510元。Students study by themselves in a spacious and bright classroom of Gudui Township Primary School in Cuomei County, Xizang Autonomous Region. This is a boarding school, the township average altitude 4500 meters, more than 50 kilometers away from the county, with only more than 1150 people. To implement the"three free policies" (eat for free, live for free, free living and study fees) to the boarding students, the county provides each student of Gudui Township primary school monthly subsidy of 510 yuan.）

高亮：南亚国家也有被西方诱惑的“人权问题”，我看他们的目的都是一样的，那就是搞乱一个正常的国家。

Gao Liang: South Asian countries also have"human rights issues" seduced by the West, and I think their purpose is the same, that is, to mess up a normal country.

雷格米：在尼泊尔，很多人一直担心西方的干涉会导致国家和区域不稳定。

Regmi: In Nepal, many people have been worried that the Western interferes may invite national and regional instability.

主持人：我十分理解雷格米教授的心情。地缘政治学发端于欧洲国家，后来成熟于美国。我给研究生上过《地缘政治学导论》的课，深知这门学科在西方学界、政界（智库）的影响，大洋彼岸的那个国家热衷于“长臂管辖”，就在于他们的“远地缘政治关系”的思考。

Host: I fully understand Professor Regmi's feelings. The discipline of geopolitics originated in European countries and later matured in the United States. I have taught the course"Introduction to Geopolitics" for graduate students, and I am well aware of the influence of this subject in the Western academic and political circles (think tanks). The country on the other side of the ocean is keen on"long-arm jurisdiction", which lies in their thinking about"far-geopolitical relations".

狄方耀：主持人的意见值得重视。西方政客打“人权牌”有很长时间了，其真实目的不是要真正关心人权，而是要借助“人权”幌子搞乱别的国家。

Di Fangyao: The host's opinion deserves attention. Western politicians have been playing the"human rights card" for a long time, but their real purpose is not to really care about human rights, but to use human rights to mess up other countries.

朱明杰：人权在国际政治、国际关系等研究之中，其实把这个概念源于西方看得很清楚。人权起码要从主权国家中人的“生存权、发展权”来理解吧？破坏别国主权，剥夺民众的生存权和发展权，有什么资格提交“人权议案”？

Zhu Mingjie: In the field of international politics, international relations and other studies, it is clear that the concept of human rights originates from the West. Human rights should at least be understood from the"right to survival and development" of people in sovereign countries, right? How can anyone who undermines the sovereignty of another country and deprives its people of their rights to survival and development be qualified to submit a Bill of Rights?

高亮：我十分赞同朱明杰的这个看法！

Gao Liang: I really agree with Zhu Mingjie!

杨荣涛：朱明杰的观点正好呼应了主持人和狄方耀教授的意见。我也很赞同！主持人曾经多次讲解过《地缘政治学导论》这门课，我听过之后也是有心得的。

Yang Rongtao: Zhu Mingjie's views echo the views of the host and Professor Di Fangyao. I agree! The host has explained the course"Introduction to Geopolitics" many times, and I also have experience after listening to it.

雷格米：这些问题在尼泊尔学界也有讨论，新闻媒体也经常说“地缘政治”“地缘经济”，希望今后有机会听到中国学者在这方面的学术见解。

Regmi: These issues are also discussed in Nepali academic circles, and the news media often refer to"geopolitics" and"geo-economics". I hope to hear the academic views of Chinese scholars in this field in the future.

高亮：我们学校南亚研究所尼泊尔研究中心欢迎雷格米教授来访，上次的六人谈中，我单位的黄正多教授和雷格米先生有过对话，希望今后在这方面多交流。

Gao Liang: The Nepal Research Center of the Institute of South Asian Studies of our university welcome Professor Regmi to visit. During the last six-people talk, Professor Huang Zhengduo from my unit had a dialogue with Mr. Regmi. We hope to have more exchanges in this regard in the future.

狄方耀：我校的南亚研究也有自己的特点，取得了一些成果。我很欣赏四川师范大学华西边疆研究所举办的这种跨校、跨省、跨国和跨学科的公众号，这种民间的学术交流，对于面向南亚的民心相通有着比学刊、杂志和报纸等传统媒体更灵活的作用。

Di Fangyao: The study of South Asia in our university also has its own characteristics and has made some achievements. I appreciate the cross-university, cross-province, transnational and interdisciplinary official account organized by the Institute of West China Frontier Studies of Sichuan Normal University. This kind of non-governmental academic exchange plays a more flexible role than journals, magazines and newspapers in promoting people-to-people exchanges in South Asia.

杨荣涛：我们也希望通过这种形式，快捷地和中国、尼泊尔、印度、巴基斯坦以及亚洲等国学界人士的交流，希望这个公众号得到学界同仁的认可和参与。

Yang Rongtao: We also hope that through this form, we can quickly communicate with scholars from China, Nepal, India, Pakistan and other Asian countries, and hope that this official account will be recognized and participated by academic colleagues.

高亮：桃李不言，下自成蹊。祝愿川师大的同仁在新年中幸福安康，事业更上一层楼！

Gao Liang:The peach and plum trees do not speak, but everyone goes towards them. I wish all my colleagues at Sichuan Normal University a happy and healthy New Year and a better career!

朱明杰：再一次祝福各位老师新年幸福安康！我希望今后有机会到南亚国家去学习、考察。希望继续在涉及西藏的学术领域之中，得到专家们的指导和帮助。

Zhu Mingjie: Once again, I wish all teachers a happy and healthy New Year! I hope to have the opportunity to study and investigate in South Asian countries in the future. I hope to continue to receive guidance and help from experts in academic fields related to Xizang.

雷格米：中国的春节快要到了，我正在约几位亚洲国家的学者，一起来谈谈春节。希望大家都看看我们的对话！到时候，我们要给中国的学术界同行拜年的。

Regmi: The Chinese Spring Festival is coming up, and I'm meeting some scholars from Asian countries to talk about the Spring Festival. I hope you all have a look at our conversation! At that time, we will pay New Year's greetings to our Chinese academic colleagues.

主持人：新年伊始，我们的跨校、跨省、跨国和跨学科交流谈了不少内容，很有意思啊。我也祝愿大家在新的一年吉祥如意！这次对话就到这里。谢谢各位学者！谢谢雷格米教授！

Host: At the beginning of the New Year, we have talked a lot about cross-school, cross-provincial, transnational and interdisciplinary exchanges, which is very interesting. I also wish you all good luck in the New Year! That's all for this conversation. Thank you, scholars! Thank you, Professor Regmi!

中尼铁路和南亚交流 

本期的六人对话，加上主持人共七人，在本公众号开办以来，第一次在新年推出六人谈，所涉及到的内容很丰富，也有学术价值，现予推送，以飧读者。

The dialogue of six people，totally seven plus the host, in this issue of"China-Nepal Railway and South Asian Exchanges", has been launched in the New Year for the first time since the opening of this officia account. The content involved is very rich, and the conversation has academic value. Now I am pushing it for readers.

（来源：中尼铁路和南亚交流微信公众号）