四人谈：法理依据的错误使用促成错误的法案文本

中尼铁路和南亚交流第61期

China-Nepal Railway and South Asia Exchange No.61

四人谈：法理依据的错误使用促成错误的法案文本

Four People Talk: The Wrong Use of Legal Grounds Contributed to the Wrong Text of the Bill

本期主持人（Moderator）：

赵琪教授西南民族大学法学院

Professor Zhao Qi, Law School of Southwest University for Nationalities

对话人（The interlocutor）：

吴喜教授西南政法大学新闻传播学院

Professor Wu Xi, School of Journalism and Communication, Southwest University of Political Science and Law

张永攀研究员中国社会科学院中国边疆研究所

Researcher Zhang Yongpan, Institute of Chinese Borderland Studies, CASS

孟庆涛教授西南政法大学人权研究院

Professor Meng Qingtao, Institute of Human Rights, Southwest University of Political Science and Law

石奎教授西南民族大学法学院

Professor Shi Kui, Law School, Southwest University for Nationalities

主持人：各位专家好！借着川师大华西边疆研究所的这个公众号，我们几个人从专业的角度谈一谈美国的一项法案。我想，大家都已经知道这个法案的文本了。

Host: Hello, experts! Through this public account of the Frontier Research Institute of Sichuan Normal University, a few of us talk about a bill in the United States from a professional perspective. I think we all already know the text of the bill.

吴喜：主持人好！在大家对话之前，都进行了沟通，应该说，我参加上一期的对话，和几位学者开了头，把美国议员的谬误认知，通过辩论后表决了针对中国内政的一份议案的事情进行了交流，大家均认为这种以自己的国内针对性法案有目的的干涉中国的事务，是十分恶劣的行径。

Wu Xi: Hello, host! Before the dialogue, we all communicated. It should be said that several scholars in the last issue made the first step by identifying clearly the fallacious perception of the US lawmakers, that is, the US House of Representatives has introduced an internal affairs bill targeting China's Xizang(Tibet). We all agree that this kind of purposeful interference in China's affairs under US's domestic legislation is a very bad act.

主持人：是的，这样的看法是正确的！这份法案文本于2024年2月15日在美国众议院获得通过，之后提交到了美国参议院。有开源数据表明，美国国会收到两院的涉藏议案至今已有200多个，正式得到通过并形成法案的有60多项。那么，各位专家，我们今天从这一议案主要内容和制订的目的开始讨论。

Host: Yes, that's right! The text of the bill passed the US House of Representatives on February 15, 2024, and was then submitted to the US Senate. According to open source data, the US Congress has received more than 200 Xizang-related bills from both houses of Congress, and more than 60 have been formally passed and formed into laws. So, experts, today we will start with the main contents of this bill and the purpose of its formulation.

吴喜：仅从信息传播的角度看，该议案的核心在于制造“冲突”，仅仅从这一信息被传播的后果看，一个国家对另一个国家的软权力攻击，已经达到了某种目的。

Wu Xi: Only from the perspective of information dissemination, the core of the bill is to create"conflict", only from the consequences of the dissemination of this information, one country's soft power attack on another country has achieved a certain purpose.  

孟庆涛：那么，从法律文本的指向看，这个议案表面上说是寻求解决分歧的方案，但实质上是通过国际法国内法依据的交错运用，通过偷换概念，混淆关于西藏的地理指涉，否定西藏的历史，试图达到否定中国对西藏行使主权、干涉中国内政的目的。

Meng Qingtao: So, from the perspective of the legal text, the US proposal is ostensibly a solution to resolve differences, but in essence it is an attempt to negate China's exercise of sovereignty over Xizang and interfere in China's internal affairs through the cross-application of international and domestic legal bases, the confusion of geographical references to Xizang and the denial of Xizang's history through a covert exchange of concepts.

张永攀：主持人和两位老师说的很对，事实上，中国政府早就表达过，在祖国统一的大前提下，愿意进行接触商谈,表示了我们最大的诚意。

Zhang Yongpan: What the moderator and the two experts said is quite right. In fact, the Chinese government has long expressed its willingness to engage in contact and negotiation on the premise of national reunification, showing our utmost sincerity.

石奎：完全同意前面几位专家的观点，西藏自古以来就是中国的一部分，这毫无疑义。即使是在20世纪初西方列强入侵的情形下，包括民国初期的军阀混战，以及抗日战争时期，中国也从未放弃过对西藏的治权。

Shi Kui: I fully agree with the previous experts that Xizang has been a part of China since ancient times, there is no doubt about that. Even during the invasion of Western powers in the early 20th century, including the warlord war in the early Republic of China and the War of Resistance against Japanese Aggression, China never relinquished its sovereignty over Xizang.

吴喜：从法学角度的解读上，美国此次涉藏议案也是矛盾的，实际上，不仅美国政府一直承认西藏是中国领土的一部分，国际社会其他国家（包括英国、印度、尼泊尔等国家）也都承认西藏是中国的一部分。美国这样做的目的事实上是，企图人为制造出一个什么独立史，并借此蛊惑民众和蒙蔽传媒界。

Wu Xi: In terms of legal interpretation, the US Xizang-related bill is also contradictory. In fact, not only has the US government always recognized Xizang as part of China's territory, but other countries in the international community (including the UK, India, Nepal and other countries) have also recognized Xizang as part of China. In fact, what the United States is trying to do is to create an artificial history of independence in order to confuse the public and blind the media.

孟庆涛：美国这一议案完全否定“西藏自古以来就是中国的一部分”的说法，将实质上的中国内政问题修改成国际法上主权国家与准主权国家的关系，妄图借国际法名义将中国对西藏行使主权的问题包装成“国际争端”，其用心险恶、手段卑鄙。

Meng Qingtao: The US proposal completely denies the argument that"Xizang has been part of China since ancient times" and revises China's internal affairs in essence into the relationship between sovereign and quasi-sovereign states under international law. It attempts to package the issue of China's exercise of sovereignty over Xizang as an"international dispute" in the name of international law. Its intentions are sinister and its means despicable.

吴喜：国际上早有新闻报道，美国插手中国内政，对涉藏事务指手画脚。这在国际报纸和电子媒体的信息传播中，一直占有一定比例。这些活动的指向性是非常明确的，因此抛出议题和涉藏法案文本的目的也是清楚的。

Wu Xi: There have long been international news reports that the United States has interfered in China's internal affairs and pointed fingers at Xizang-related affairs. This has always occupied a certain proportion in the information dissemination of international newspapers and electronic media. The direction of these activities is very clear, so the purpose of putting forward the issue and Xizang-related bill text is also clear.

主持人：美国支持别国的分裂活动成为惯例，这段时间以国内立法的形式来讨论法律地位问题，令人不解。既然是国内立法，总要有立法的依据。议案出台的法理依据在哪里？各位专家怎么看。

Host: It is a common practice for the United States to support other countries' separatist activities. It is puzzling to discuss the legal status of Xizang in the form of domestic legislation these days. Since it is a domestic legislation, there must be a basis for legislation. What is the legal basis for the bill? What do the experts think?

石奎：议案不断提到《联合国宪章》《公民权利和政治权利国际公约》《经济、社会、文化权利国际公约》《联大第2625号决议》等国际法所确认的“所有人民享有自决权”原则。但事实上，以此为依据提出的议案显然违背常理，这些国际公约以及其他国际法提到的享有自决权的主体是被西方列强侵占的殖民地和半殖民地的国家人民，这些规定并不适用于主权国家内部。

Shi Kui: The bill repeatedly refers to the principle of"the right of all peoples to self-determination" as affirmed in international laws such as the UN Charter, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, and the UN General Assembly Resolution 2625. However, in fact, the motion proposed on this basis is obviously contrary to common sense. These international conventions and other international laws mention that the subjects enjoying the right to self-determination are the peoples of colonial and semi-colonial countries occupied by Western powers, and these provisions do not apply to sovereign states.

主持人：是的，我本人就讲授国际法课程。人民自决原则在国际法上的产生有深刻的历史背景，是为实现被压迫民族的平等与自决之目的。《联大第2625号决议》对这一原则解释非常详细，明确表述这一原则的目的是“迅速铲除殖民主义”。《联合国宪章》起草协作委员会秘书处在1945年提交的说明中，清晰指出在宪章中“people”“nation”和“state”三词为近义词同置是准确无误的。

Host: Yes, I teach international law myself. The origin of the principle of people's self-determination in international law has a profound historical background, and is for the purpose of realizing the equality and self-determination of the oppressed nations. General Assembly Resolution 2625 explains this principle in great detail, explicitly stating that the purpose of this principle is"the rapid eradication of colonialism". In a note submitted by the Secretariat of the United Nations Charter Drafting Committee in 1945, it was clearly pointed out that the words"people","nation" and"state" in the Charter were synonymous with each other, which was accurate.

张永攀：人民自决原则自诞生之日起就不适用于鼓励国家分裂或破坏领土完整或政治统一情形，这一前提至今未发生变化。《联大第2625号决议》在详细阐释民族自决原则时，非常明确这一原则不得解释为“授权或鼓励采取任何行动，局部或全部破坏或损害”“自主独立国家之领土完整或政治统一”。

Zhang Yongpan: The principle of peoples' self-determination has not been applied since its birth to situations that encourage the secession of states or undermine territorial integrity or political unity, and this premise has not changed. In elaborating on the principle of self-determination, UNGA Resolution 2625 makes it very clear that this principle shall not be interpreted as"authorizing or encouraging any action that undermines or impairs, in part or in whole, the territorial integrity or political unity of autonomous and independent States."

吴喜：美国众议院的一些议员在议案中，标榜美国是“人民自决原则的早期支持者之一”，但实际上它是不折不扣“自决权”的双标选手。篡改联合国宪章条款、曲解国际法的规定，成为一些美国政客的常用手法。

Wu Xi: Some members of the United States House of Representatives in the bill, billed the United States as"one of the early supporters of the principle of self-determination of the people," but in fact it is a double standard of"self-determination." Tampering with the provisions of the UN Charter and distorting the provisions of international law have become common practices of some US politicians.

孟庆涛：人民自决原则在二战后就逐步成为了国际法基本原则，但其内涵与民族分离、国家分裂有本质的区别，根本不能放在一起讨论。

Meng Qingtao: The principle of people's self-determination has gradually become a basic principle of international law since the Second World War, but its connotation is fundamentally different from national separation and state division, and cannot be discussed together at all.

主持人：美国这一议案故意将国际法与国内法的依据交错运用，应该是想引发更多国家对其捏造的“问题”的关注。如果这一议案在美国参议院获得通过，再由美国总统签署批准为正式的法律文件，会对外界产生怎样的影响？

Host: The US bill deliberately uses the basis of international law and domestic law to draw more countries' attention to the fabricated"issue". If this bill is passed by the US Senate and then signed by the US President as a formal legal document, what impact will it have on the outside world?

张永攀：美国的涉藏议案如果成为法案，其影响将是很恶劣的。会成为美国今后援引的法典之一，还会在国际社会混淆西藏自治区的地理范围。这对于不了解历史和行政区划变迁的普通人群，以及一些国际人士来说，该法案散播的虚假信息将会对他们造成一定的冲击，并且贻害美国国内的法学界。

Zhang Yongpan: If the US Xizang-related bill becomes law, its impact will be very bad. It will become one of the future codes invoked by the United States, and it will confuse the geographical scope of the Xizang Autonomous Region in the international community. The disinformation spread by the bill will come as a shock to the general population, who do not understand the history and changes in administrative divisions, as well as to some international people, and will cause subsequent damage to the legal community in the United States.

吴喜：西藏历史和地理事实，是在中国历史的长河中形成的。美国的议案向全世界传播歪曲的西藏历史和地理事实，借助某个宗教人士的影响力，渲染有害的一系列概念，混淆国际视听所带来的危害，必须在法理上予以驳斥。

Wu Xi: The historical and geographical facts of Xizang were formed in the long course of Chinese history. The harm caused by United States' proposal, which disseminating distorted historical and geographical facts about Xizang to the world, using the influence of a certain religious figure to play up a series of harmful concepts, and confusing the international public opinion, must be refuted on the basis of law.

张永攀：中国西藏的历史与行政区划的变迁，理应中国自己来解说，其他国家的人出于地缘政治的目的，所解说的西藏情况，可能是不真实的。美国长期以来粗暴干涉中国内政的做法，不可能陈述真实的西藏，他们传播的虚假西藏故事，还在国际社会造成了涉藏议案之外的负面影响，成为世界文明进步史上的恶劣案例。

Zhang Yongpan: The history of Xizang and the changes in its administrative division should be explained by China itself, and what people in other countries explain about Xizang for geopolitical purposes may not be true. For a long time, the United States has grossly interfered in China's internal affairs, making it impossible to tell the true story of Xizang, and the false Tibetan story they have spread has also caused negative impact on the international community beyond the Xizang-related bills, becoming a bad case in the history of world civilization and progress.

石奎：是的，美国建国才二百来年，频繁炮制对中国施行了七百多年行政管理权的西藏地区的法案，不是很可笑吗？美向国际社会释放错误的信号，那么所有国家都照此办理，将对世界和平造成不断地危害。

Shi Kui：Yes, China has exercised administrative power over Xizang for more than 700 years, and the United States has been a nation for just over 200 years. Isn't it ridiculous that the US frequently issues resolutions on the“Xizang issue”? If the US sends the wrong signal to the international community, then all countries will follow suit, causing continuous harm to world peace.

孟庆涛：美国的涉藏议案否定中国已经有七百多年的“行政地理”，很荒谬。此次议案的出台，表明美国很可能在对中国干涉的错误道路上越走越远。

Meng Qingtao: The US Xizang-related bill denies China's"administrative geography", which has existed for more than 700 years. The introduction of this bill shows that the United States is likely to go further and further down the wrong path of interference with China.

吴喜：人们看到，美国使用“冲突”一词，无中生有地创设我国内政中的涉藏矛盾，以“符合美国期望”的冲突解决的方案，是为了进一步制造更多和更复杂的冲突以达到更深程度插手中国内政。

Wu Xi: People see that the United States uses the word"conflict" to create out of thin air the Xizang-related conflict in China's internal affairs, in order to"meet the expectations of the United States" to resolve the conflict and further create more and more complex conflicts to reach a deeper level of interference in China's internal affairs.

石奎:遵循联合国宪章行事，是中国一贯的态度和做法，这在全球有目共睹。中国学界研究人员尤其是法学界的学者，在多方考察和对比后，对联合国宪章提出的“各国平等、保障人权、基本安全、尊重条约、和睦相处、维持国际和平及安全”等理念，都持完全赞同的态度。这是我们评议美国推出涉藏议案的底线思维，也是起码的立场。

Shi Kui: It is China's consistent attitude and practice to act in accordance with the UN Charter, which is recognized by all around the world. Chinese academic researchers, especially those in the field of law, have fully agreed with the principles of the UN Charter, such as"equality of all States, protection of human rights, basic security, respect for treaties, harmonious coexistence, and maintenance of international peace and security". This is our bottom-line thinking and our basic position when commenting on the Xizang-related proposals introduced by the United States.

张永攀：是的，在这样的前提下，中国的人权事业在西藏得以完全的实现。西藏自治区各族民众安居乐业的景象，充分证明了这一点。

Zhang Yongpan: Yes, under this premise, China's human rights cause can be fully realized in Xizang.The picture of people of all ethnic groups living and working in peace and contentment in the Xizang Autonomous Region fully testifies to this.

孟庆涛:完全同意！对比美国对别国人权说三道四，却不能制止美国各州的暴力犯罪越演越烈，中国的法制保障深入各个方面，大城市和乡村的治安良好，四川、青海、甘肃和云南涉藏州县的平安景象就是明证。

Meng Qingtao: Totally agree! In contrast to the United States, which makes irresponsible comments about human rights in other countries but fails to stop violent crimes in its states, China's legal protection is in all aspects, and public security is good in big cities and rural areas, as illustrated by the peaceful scenes in Tibetan-inhabited areas in Sichuan, Qinghai, Gansu and Yunnan.

吴喜：我作为本期专家对话的牵线人，感到在讨论中向主持人和各位学者学到了不少东西。四川师范大学华西边疆研究所的这个公众号有不错的效能，南亚还有中亚包括西亚的学界朋友能够看到我们的对话，这是一种很好的国际传播方式。借此平台，我向这些国家的认识的朋友和不认识的朋友致意！通过这个信息渠道，你们能够了解中国学者的民间学术交流活动。

Wu Xi: As the facilitator of this expert dialogue, I feel that I have learned a lot from the host and scholars during the discussion. The public account of the West China Frontier Research Institute of Sichuan Normal University has a good effect. Academic friends in South Asia, Central Asia and West Asia can see our dialogue, which is a good way of international communication. On this platform, I would like to extend my compliments to friends I know and friends I don't know from these countries. Through this information channel, you can learn about the non-governmental academic exchange activities of Chinese scholars.

张永攀：我也有这样的感受，也同样谢谢四川师范大学华西边疆研究所的同仁！向尼泊尔学者近年来一直和中国学者进行交流、关注中国涉藏地区的发展，表示问候！

Zhang Yongpan: I have the same feeling, and also thank the colleagues of Sichuan Normal University West China Frontier Research Institute! I would like to extend my greetings to Nepali scholars who have been conducting exchanges with Chinese scholars in recent years and paying close attention to the development of Xizang and Tibetan-inhabited areas in Qinghai, Gansu, Sichuan and Yunnan provinces.

石奎：同感！我想，中国学界的研究人员在对外交流之中，和相邻国家的一道，通过民间学术讨论的方式，能够彼此多了解，这是非常好的事情。

Shi Kui: The same! I think it is a very good thing that researchers from the Chinese academic community and neighboring countries can get to know each other better through non-governmental academic discussions in the course of international exchanges.

主持人：好的。非常感谢各位专家参与本期对话，各位专家的观点非常深入。的确，我们发现美国这次的议案包装工作做得“非常好”，将其提出的所谓的“西藏问题”伪装成了一个国际法上的问题，以自己国内的立法去假装确立西藏的地理范围，否定西藏的历史。不过，中国人民一直知道，西藏自古以来就是中国的一部分、西藏人民是中华民族共同体的一部分。当然，除了今天各位专家交流的话题外，议案里面还涉及其他方面的内容。期待专家们今后继续深入探讨。

Host: OK！Thank you very much for participating in this dialogue. The experts' views are very in-depth. Indeed, we find that the US bill has done a"very good job" in disguising the so-called"Xizang issue". It raises as an issue of international law, using its own domestic legislation to pretend to establish the geographical scope of Xizang and deny the history of Xizang. However, the Chinese people have always known that Xizang has been a part of China since ancient times and the Tibetan people are part of the Chinese national community. Of course, in addition to the topics discussed by experts today, the bill also covers other aspects. Experts are expected to continue in-depth discussions in the future.

《中尼铁路和南亚交流》本期的四人对话，加上主持人共五人，对美国众议院在2024年讨论和提交到参议院的“涉藏法案”，所涉及到的该法案文本的性质进行了中国法学界研究者的对话，这也是学界进行国际传播的内容之一，本期法学界专家对话所具有的价值，将会被阅读认真的读者所认识。

There are four interlocutors in this issue of"China-Nepal Railway and South Asian exchanges", plus the host, a total of five people. They conducted a dialogue among Chinese legal scholars on the nature of the text of the Xizang-related Bill submitted to the Senate after the discussion of the US House of Representatives in February 2024, which is also one of the contents of the international communication of the academic community. The value of the dialogue among legal experts in this issue will be recognized by serious readers.

（来源：中尼铁路和南亚交流公众号）